HHS 26 | Keto Diet

 

How can eating fats make you lose fats? Keto diet has become one of the diet trends that has recently become a household name for some diet enthusiasts. However, along with its growing popularity, debates have also arisen. Jimmy Moore and Christine Moore, authors of the book Real Food Keto, share their profound knowledge about the keto diet and testifies on its countless benefits on their health. They take us into a deeper understanding of the practice, clarify misinformation, and debunk myths hurled against the diet.

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Keto Power Couple Jimmy and Christine Moore

HHS 26 | Keto Diet

Real Food Keto: Applying Nutritional Therapy to Your Low-Carb, High-Fat Diet

I’m so excited because I get to talk to the world famous Jimmy Moore. You’ve known him from a lot of different areas like Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb. He was the low carb guy, the fasting guy and the keto guy. He married up like I did, which is super cool. Christine, his wife is on the show as well and they are out also with their book, Real Food Keto and just fantastic recipes in here. It’s a beautiful book. You guys teamed up with a chef, Maria Emmerich, as well. One of my favorite recipes that I love here is the Reuben Sliders. Check out the recipes for the Reuben Sliders. Welcome to the Healthy Heart Show.

Thank you for having us.

What’s up, Jack?

All is well over here and I’m salivating over the pictures. Jimmy, this stuff you put out is so fantastic, the pictures, the imagery. I can tell you’re spending so much time, money, and effort to get this message out there. I appreciate that. I know others do as well.

Thank you, Jack. When I first started writing books, I was like, “Nobody’s writing books for the layperson.” There was a lot of science-y books but even a lot of doctors don’t know how to write in laypeople language. I was trying to fill that hole and I found my niche.

Tell me some of the backstories of where you came from and how you got into low-carb, becoming a worldwide expert on keto and teaming up with some great people there and then intermittent fasting. I also want to preface this and say as a cardiologist, I certainly approve of all of this. The science is there, there are plenty of studies. I think once again, in your travels, Jimmy and Christine, you’ll tell me. In my travels and my patients, the results speak for themselves. Tell me some of your journeys.

I used to weigh 410 pounds and was on three prescription medications. Everybody who gets “unhealthy” has to take a statin medication, which I know is near and dear to your heart trying to get patients off of those. I was on three and I was a ticking time bomb at the age of 31, 32. I didn’t care about what I ate. I used to eat what I now call crappy carbage and it loaded my body up with blood sugar, insulin and inflammation. It’s amazing to this day that I never developed type two diabetes with the habits I had because I was drinking, and this is no lie, sixteen cans of Coca-Cola every day. I was having whole boxes of Little Debbie snack cakes. I was a junk food addict. Thankfully, this little lady’s mom gives me a diet book for Christmas in 2003.

It was Dr. Atkins’ book. I read that book and I thought, “This guy is whacked out of his mind. How do you eat more fat? Don’t you know that it’s going to clog your arteries, give you a heart attack, heart disease, everything that we always believed and then eat less carbs? How am I supposed to have any energy at all?” I read that book between Christmas and New Year’s. I said, “What the heck? Let’s give it a go.” I famously lost a bunch of weight, but more importantly now in hindsight, it’s the coming off of all those medications and literally never taking another med ever since that I’m most proud of. Then that spawned developing a blog, a podcast and then books and all the stuff that I do now.

Frankly, I don’t think that my diet circa 2003 was much different from yours. That’s where some genetics come in. Although I was eating all that garbage, it wasn’t showing up in me physically, but I’m sure in the lab testing that was done, it was there because I was drinking Diet Mountain Dew, Chinese food. I came out of Chicago. There were all the ethnic foods, deep-dishes, everything you can think of. I had way too much alcohol.

Waking up, back in the year 2000, I was at the American College of Cardiology meetings in Orlando and I was a fellow at the time in training. I heard a debate between Atkins and Dean Ornish and those guys hated each other. They went at it for 45 minutes and I walked out of that meeting and I said, “I’m a low-carb guy.” I read Atkins’ book and everything he said made sense, but unfortunately, as a cardiology trainee, you fall back into the bad habits so easily. How do you avoid falling back into bad habits? I’ve read your stuff. I listened to your blog, I listened to your podcast. There are a million Jimmy Moores and Jack Wolfsons out there. How do you avoid falling back on some of those bad foods?

It’s a matter of when you get into good habits, they stick just as the bad habits stuck. They always say it takes 21 days to change a habit. If I find myself slipping, I get back to the basics again. Something I try to teach people is we all mess up. If you have messed up time, it’s not the end of the world. It doesn’t mean you go back to the crappy carbage diet again. You get right back on plan again. Sometimes fasting plays a role in that to speed it up a little bit. I’ve done it so long plus I have a vested interest in sticking with it, now that this is my career and what I do writing books. That keeps you accountable.

I would definitely say that as well because whenever I’m walking around Whole Foods or Natural Grocers and I think about grabbing a chocolate bar, granted, it’s an organic chocolate bar. It’s dark chocolate, it has no lousy ingredients. I’m always concerned that someone is going to see me and that it’s breaking my business model if somebody sees me cheating or something like that. I tell the story famously of my father died at 63 of a neurologic disease similar to Parkinson’s. That’s my inspiration on a daily basis. I’m not going to upset a couple of followers or people that do that. The mission is much bigger than what we’re talking about. I know that there are probably other more lucrative careers that Jimmy Moore could have chosen. Jack Wolfson was making a ton of money as a conventional cardiologist and I gave it up to do the right thing. Christine, aside from your father giving Jimmy the book, how do you prod Jimmy along to make sure that he and the family stick on the program?

For Jimmy, he doesn’t need any prodding. He watched his older brother die of diabetes and heart disease at the age of 41. That’s why he’s so passionate as to why he does what he does. For me, it was interesting because he started in 2004 eating this way. I didn’t get on board because I was eating a crappy diet, but it wasn’t showing on the outside. Everything that I was dealing with was on the inside and we weren’t making the connections between the diet and the things that I was dealing with like mood disorders, panic attacks, joint pain, endometriosis, all this stuff. We weren’t making the connection. It wasn’t until 2009 that I went to the doctor. I was still encouraging to him.

I wasn’t saying, “You’re eating all this bad. It’s going to kill you.” By that time, I was so desperate for him to try something that would work, that I went along with it and supported him all the way. For me, when I went to the doctor in 2009 and had my annual blood work done, my triglycerides came back at 298. I brought my lab work back home to Jimmy and he goes, “You know what to do about that.” At that time, I only cut out the M&M’s, Skittles and Dr. Pepper. That’s the only three things that I cut out and my triglycerides dropped from 298 to 136 in six weeks. I was still eating a bunch of other crap, but you see how big of a change that cutting out those three things made.

What confuses me about this story is that most people either like M&M’s and other chocolates or they like Skittles and other sugary things. 

I know, I’m weird. I pretty much like any sweets, but M&Ms and Skittles were my favorites. I’ll take that back, jelly beans. Funny story, my parents got me on jelly beans when they were trying to potty train me. That’s why I ended up liking jelly beans so much.

Over on our side, my brother always liked those Nerds and Skittles and stuff like that, and I was always more of the chocolate fan.

I liked it all. I cut those three things out in 2011 and we went through embryo adoption because we went through IVF in 2008. We were told at that time we couldn’t have biological children, so we went through embryo adoption. We found out I got pregnant and I got serious at that point about changing my diet. Jimmy had interviewed several people in talking about the importance of eating healthy, especially when you’re pregnant. We did and he ended up getting me liver, cutting it up into small pieces, freezing it, and then I would take it like a pill. I hate the taste of liver, so that’s the only way that I can do it.

We ended up losing the twins due to some genetic factors that we weren’t aware of at the time. I still remained serious about the diet because I was already starting to see changes in the other stuff that I was dealing with like I had an annual eye visit four months into eating this way. Since I was born prematurely at six months, I had some eye issues that went along with that. All throughout my life, my eyesight kept getting worse, but for the first time after starting a ketogenic diet, my eyesight improved. We had to go in the other direction. I’ve been on the same prescription for seven years now.

$1,200 a year we were spending on glasses that we’ve saved about $10,000 in the last seven years.

That was one of many things that I saw improvements and I was able to get off my antidepressants. I saw my joint pain get better. Many things that I’d been struggling with, again, not putting the connection between diet and these things. At that point, that’s when I became serious and we’ve been eating this way ever since.

You were seeing all these doctors and they were prescribing you guys all these pharmaceuticals. How often did the doctors talk to you about nutrition, lifestyle, and evidence-based supplements?

For me, it was always the default of, “You’re obese so you need to cut out your fat, you need to eat more grains and you need to exercise.” That was always the prescription.

I never heard it and as a matter of fact, at my last annual checkup, my calcium score came back wonky. I asked the physician’s assistant, “Could it be because I’m deficient in K2?” Because you need vitamin D and K2 to help tell calcium where it needs to go. She said, “I don’t know, but I’ll have to look into it.” To her credit, she said she would research it, but she didn’t know that.

You said calcium score so he might have thought heart calcium score. Hers is zero, so is mine.

I’m glad you both know it. I’m glad it’s both zero. My preference is to not get calcium scores or CT scans because CT scans cause cancer, heart disease, and dementia. I’m glad that your scores are zero but just so I put it out there.

Do you prefer CIMT?

CIMT would be something that’s not invasive. That’s an ultrasound and that will be perfectly fine. There are so many amazing lab tests that are out there that we can do that are not radiation based. Since my father had the brain disease that both of us as cardiologists were exposed to a lot of radiation, doing angiograms and pacemakers, I’m pretty anti-radiation, especially in the name of prevention. There are other ways to do it. Christine, you’re highlighting K2, let me throw this to you guys because you’ve got some significant expertise. How do we get K2 from our food?

Good habits stick around like bad habits do. Click To Tweet

A lot of us don’t eat organ meats. We don’t eat nose to tail. That’s a big one. They taste disgusting. Even Jimmy and I have a hard time with it. We take the Organ Complex. That’s an easy way that we can get it in. A lot of your green leafy vegetables have it. If your gut health is happy, your gut bugs make K2, but your gut health has to be in order for that to happen. Those are some major ways. Eating eggs is another way.

Christine, your degree, if you will, the letters after your name are NTP, nutritional therapy practitioner. Listening to you speak and Jimmy as well, all of America, all of the world would be better off in the hands of you guys and reading your book than in the hands of a medical doctor. That is quite obvious because you’re talking about K2, which most medical doctors don’t even know that there is vitamin K, let alone K1 and K2, let alone separations of K2, let alone how to get it in the food, how to get it from supplements. Jimmy, I love that technically like you said from Chris Kresser, and maybe I read it from you after that, but I think I learned it from you about freezing the liver first because a lot of people are not going to eat those organs and that goes for the liver, heart.

People talk about CoQ10. That’s the number one place is in the heart. We eat a lot of organ meats in the Wolfson household. The only time that I ever eat soy is the fermented soy Natto. There’s a company in New York and I’ve got no affiliation with them except for it’s a great product. It’s organic and it’s in glasses and it’s called NYrture. I wanted to sell it in my practice but because I’m a cardiologist, they’re all weird about it like I’m going to use it for medicinal purposes. They’re making a big deal out of it but it’s still a good product. It’s the only time I have soy in ten years.

They, being the medical board who’s giving you a hard time about it?

The company.

NYrture is giving you a hard time. Why would they care?

Who knows? It does taste good though. Jimmy, I want to tell you also another story. You say you are overweight, but you never developed diabetes. I will say maybe that’s insulin resistance and high insulin, who knows what the numbers were back then. A good friend of mine from medical school, his father was markedly overweight. My friend would always comment. He was like, “My dad’s way overweight but his cholesterol is great, and he doesn’t have diabetes and it’s all genetics.” Then he got cancer. It’s like something’s always coming around the pike and if you search enough, those people as we know now with advanced lab testing, insulin is very high, insulin resistance.

We know that it’s all one continuous disease because we like to classify heart disease and type two diabetes and cancer. They’re all metabolic diseases related to the insulin. While it may not manifest as heart disease in one person or diabetes in another person or cancer in another person, it might manifest as one of those or all of those. Alzheimer’s is another one, and type three diabetes. The longer we’re in this space, that’s becoming clearer and clearer that we’re talking about the same singular disease, not all these classifications of diseases that we like to break them down into categories like, “35% have heart disease and 20% have type two diabetes.” It’s all the same disease.

It all stems from inflammation.

What you guys are telling me? What you’re saying, Jimmy, is that I spent four years in medical school and I memorized twenty different types of skin lesions. I memorized fifteen different types of cardiomyopathy and seven types of liver failure and all these different labels that all the medical doctors are so good at. You’re telling me that all these labels are all from the same causes.

The underlying condition is a metabolic one, not ones related. It’s unfortunate that chronic disease has gone this route, because if we had identified it all as the same disease, then the same solution would have manifested itself sooner. Rather than if you have type two diabetes, this is how you eat. If you have heart disease, this is how you eat. We would have avoided a lot of heartache and pain and possibly prevent deaths had we been given people the right information all along about it being a metabolic disease.

HHS 26 | Keto Diet

Keto Diet: We would have avoided a lot of heartache and pain and possibly prevent deaths had people been given people the right information all along about metabolic diseases.

 

Most certainly and in your book here, you bash and vilify Ancel Keys, which I love to do as well. It’s funny that in one area, he can be such a pariah, like on our side. Yet on the vegan, Joel Fuhrman, the Engine 2 guy, John McDougall, Ancel Keys is their hero. It’s like they got the shrine of Ancel Keys in their bedroom.

Ironically, he’s the guy that came up with the Mediterranean diet, which is the darling diet in the mainstream these days. He’s most famous for that low-fat diet study that he fudged the numbers.

I love the Mediterranean Diet, save the greens. They’re eating all the fruits and vegetables. We’re talking about low sugar.

It’s pretty keto.

At the local Whole Foods in Arizona, we would shop there. We try and spread around the wealth. We are here in Colorado right now. We got a local grocer called MANA Foods. A real tiny little place and we try and give them all the business we can, but at the Whole Foods that I was shopping at in Arizona, there was a big sign that Engine 2, Rip Esselstyn is coming there to give a presentation.

Did you go?

I did not go, Jimmy, because I’m not a heckler in the crowd and stuff like that. He’s probably a lot bigger too, so I’ll keep my ass. I’m thinking at that moment, “Why don’t I go down to the fire station and start giving a lecture on how to fight a fire?” This guy, the fireman’s coming to Whole Foods and giving a nutrition lecture. Why can’t a cardiologist go give a lecture on fire fighting at the fire station? With all due respect to firemen, I love firemen, seriously I do. I would say probably stick to that realm as opposed to you’re a nutrition expert.

You’ve just described the modern day age of expert. There are a lot of people that pretend to be experts and we see it in the keto space. I was way ahead of the curve writing this book, Keto Clarity, way back in 2014 and then there was basically dead silence. There was nobody else writing about keto and then suddenly, keto becomes popular. You have all these people popping up, “I’m a keto expert,” and I’ve never heard of them before. It’s pretty amazing. If you want to talk about firefighters in health, they need to look at what Robb Wolf did with the first responders and how he radically changed the firefighters and the people that did the ambulance and all those first responders. I think it was in Reno, Nevada that he did that. It’s sad that people will believe someone like a Rip Esselstyn just because he’s been embraced by the vegan community. That’s why we have to be very wary of who our gurus are.

I’ve got a good friend of mine who is a vegan and he’s also a cardiologist and you probably know him, Joel Kahn. He texts me saying that he’s been dabbling with low-carb vegan.

I interviewed him about it and was very complimentary, but then he goes on the Joe Rogan show and debates Chris Kresser and says all the vegan nonsense again. Which is it, Joel? Crap or get off the pod, dude.

I love Joel. I’m trying to wrap my head around how you do low-carb vegan. That’s got to be tough.

There is a book out there now. I do a podcast called Keto Talk with Jimmy Moore and Dr. Will Cole. My co-host, Dr. Will Cole, wrote a book about it called Ketotarian. Have you seen that one?

I do know Will Cole and I think I have heard that terminology.

It is a plant-based keto. He recommends highly eggs and fish so you can get the complete proteins, but he thinks it could be mostly plant-based and high fat, moderate protein, low carb to make it keto.

Coming from the traditional vegan side and what a lot of those people, what Esselstyn believe and even The China Study, Colin Campbell and stuff like that, those guys were all ultra-low fat guys. If you’re ultra-low fat, then that means ultra-high carb.

Most modern-day experts are those who pretend to be experts, and you see a lot of them in the keto space. Click To Tweet

Ketos out with them. Kudos to Joel Kahn for backing the trend on the podcast that I had him on my podcast. He was like, “I’m going to go to the vegan meeting in the fall.” It’s already happened now. “I’m going to share my results of how I’ve done.” He only did it for a very short period of time and he’s dipping his toe in the water. Kudos to him at least giving it a go and not vilifying the K word.

I’ve always liked that about Joel since I met Joel back in 2012. We were both in training together for metabolic cardiology under Mark Houston. Joel was always about science. He was all about experimenting. He was never this pure ideologic world where he’s going to stick in there and, “It’s my way or the highway.”

I can appreciate the lack of dogma. I think it needs to be out there even more and I even challenge a lot of my keto personalities and doctors and researchers to do the same thing and I am. I’m seeing that more and more that there’s no such dogma on this end of things. From the vegan end of things, there’s extreme dogma. That whole What The Health documentary was the biggest propaganda film I’ve ever seen.

Jimmy, I don’t know how you watch those movies. I can’t watch them.

I have to. It’s called recognizance for show content. I did an episode of Keto Talk where I listened to that whole freaking film four times to get quotes out of it, so I could respond to it. Because people were saying, “I can’t eat keto anymore, eat animal-based foods because of What The Health.” I’m like, “We got to break this down for people.”

One of the things my wife always say is, “Why is there a debate about the food? Do we have to tell a lion what to eat in the wild or a bear what to eat in the wild? Why do humans have to try and reinvent the diet? Why can’t we just admit that we’re hunter-gatherers and the food was sporadic? Therefore, intermittent fasting makes perfect sense. Why do we have to come up with all this other stuff in these food pyramids and everything else? Why is this happening?”

People like to be told what to do. With the title of our book, Real Food Keto. It’s a shame that we have to put the term real in front of food. This is food and that’s going to look different from person to person. With my clients, I may have somebody that comes in, it’s a little bit more athletic. They may stand a few more carbohydrates in the form of a sweet potato or something like that, but I have to look at my clients individually and most of them frankly are metabolically damaged so I will recommend a ketogenic diet for them. It’s such a shame with all the marketing and stuff going on now that we have to put that clarification and call it real food.

Christine, aside from someone getting a consultation with you, which I recommend anybody soak up all the information they can from the Moores. That’s why I’m talking to them. Can I jump into the keto diet or nutrition? Do I have to prepare for it? What do I need to do?

If I had a client come in, I look at their food journal. It depends on the personality because some people are like all in or nothing or some people need a gradual approach to it. I look at their personality and see what fits best for them and if they are coming from the standard American diet, I will make small changes in their food journal. Maybe telling them to cut out the sugar as a first step and then move on. If there’s somebody that can go all in, I’m going to warn them that it’s going to be a little bit tough. They’re probably going to develop an electrolyte imbalance because they’re dumping all of their glycogen. I’ll probably recommend that they do an electrolyte supplementation to prevent those muscle cramps, fatigue and brain fog type of thing. It depends on the person and their personality. They can definitely come straight from a standard American diet to a ketogenic diet but it’s going to hurt as it did for you. They’re going to feel the keto flu.

HHS 26 | Keto Diet

Keto Diet: We have to be very wary of who our gurus are.

 

I went from sixteen cans of Coca-Cola and whole boxes of Little Debbie snack cakes to twenty grams of carbohydrates. That hurt bad.

Jimmy, I don’t know if you ever saw this one thing we post annually. Truth be told, we’re trying anti-technology the whole thing and everything, but with some limitations. My son is eleven years old and every year now him and his little brother do the Halloween candy dump. They get all the candy together that they collected the night before and the next morning we do this whole thing explaining all the toxic ingredients in the candy, what better organic candy is out there. If you’re going to do it, there are organic varieties and then we dumped the candy. Invariably people started, “Why don’t you donate it to the soldiers? Why don’t you give it to the homeless?” I’m like, “Why would I give the soldiers the military or the homeless Halloween candy?”

I don’t hate those people, that’s why. It’s amazing. If momma had said, “You can keep the candy or you can have $20,” I wouldn’t have taken the $20.

We love that as well. As far as jumping into keto, tell me some of your favorite keto foods. We’re talking to Jimmy and Christine Moore, authors of the new book here, Real Food Keto. It’s such a gorgeous book. I love the pictures, the colors, the explanations. It’s like a food Bible. It’s like this keto healthy lifestyle Bible if you will.

We were hoping for that, that people already interested in real food would get a little keto and understanding of that. People that are interested in keto are going to learn a whole lot that they’re not just hearing about out there in the mainstream about keto. This is in Costco, this book. We’re hoping people that are casually hearing about keto, they pick this book up and they understand the value that real food gives them because I think the micronutrition is as important, if not, maybe slightly more important than even the macro nutrition.

What are some of your favorite keto food?

I know I made this one, some bacon for breakfast.

Bacon is my number one thing. I love salmon. Butter, it has to be salted. I don’t like unsalted butter.

We have 26 backyard chicken, so needless to say, we get glorious eggs. They’re orange, the yolk is so good. I like pork belly and grass-fed butter. I do like prime rib for the good horseradish and sour cream.

Veggies probably. I love big salads with a good source of fat on it. Absolutely get some cheese on there and some vinaigrette or something.

We grow our own vegetables. During the warmer season, we have a front yard and a backyard, actually two backyard gardens. Then during the winter time, we had put in a greenhouse. We got a whole bunch of plants in there hoping that it survives. We’ve never done it in a greenhouse before when it’s twenty-something degrees outside. This will be interesting.

You guys are absolutely fantastic. Talking the talk and walking the walk. I absolutely love it. Fasting, I heard about it. Where does fasting come in? Why isn’t going keto enough? Why do I have to fast?

Most people, when they get on a ketogenic approach, they’re so satiated from the foods that they’re eating, from the healthy fats that you spontaneously intermittent fast. I think that just happens naturally. I remember when I first started doing nutritional ketosis, she looks over at me one day and she says, “When was the last time you ate?” It had been 24 hours since my last meal. In other words, I had forgotten that I hadn’t eaten in 24 hours. I wasn’t even thinking about food. That’s the freedom that comes with keto is that fasting, especially on an intermittent level, is so incredibly easy. That doesn’t happen on day one. Don’t think you’re going to go keto, then day one, “I’m supposed to be fasting for eighteen hours.” It will happen over time once your keto-adapted. If you want to go several days of fasting, which we now know if you fast for at least three days, you’d get a lot of autophagy benefits from that.

You get the turnover of the excess proteins that float around the body, it cleans those up for you with three days of water and salt only fasting. I remember Dr. Thomas Seyfried told me one time on the Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show when I interviewed him way back 2009. He said, “If you fast for a week, seven to ten days every single year with distilled water and salt, you can prevent cancer.” I remember he said it at the end of the interview and I was so dumbfounded like, “That’s all the time we have.” It stuck with me and it’s pretty much what started me down this path of wanting to know more about fasting because it’s not just about weight loss, obviously, you’re going to lose weight if you fast. What’s more compelling to me are all the health advantages that pop up.

For me, fasting for my clients. I have one client in particular. She has a habit of under eating in her calories because she’s got that calorie hypothesis thing going on in her head. I told her, “I would much rather you fast for a day than to under eat your calories because undereating does more damage than fasting.” It goes against and it doesn’t make sense, but it’s true. For her, I tell “Just don’t eat for a day, fast and it gives your pancreas a break.” It has a lot of benefits.

Fasting certainly and one of my favorites is that it breaks food addictions. Once you go on a 24 to 36-hour fast, you’re not craving pancakes for breakfast. You tend to crave something healthy, at least I do.

You’re not hungry. That’s the thing that I try to communicate to people that there’s not this progression of more and more hunger. Actually, the longer I fast, especially beyond 48 hours, the more satiated I get and it’s almost like I never have to eat again. Obviously, you do, but the feeling is there that you don’t and you realize how much of what you’re feeding yourself and how you’re feeding yourself and the frequency by which you’re feeding yourself is pretty much irrelevant. You shouldn’t be eating maybe as often as you think you are.

We take everything away from somebody when we're telling them to change their diet. It's going to scare them off. Click To Tweet

My buddy Dan Pompa, he feels that the feast is as important as the fast. What do you think about that?

What you feast with and the timing of it and how you break a fast, all of those things are things that are incredibly important. Dan is spot on there because once you reintroduce food after having fasted, your body’s having to get adjusted to that new nutrition. A lot of people say, “Should I fast before I go keto?” Because it will make it easier getting into keto. It comes from the standard American diet. That fast is going to hurt, so don’t do that but once you get keto-adapted and you start spontaneously fasting, maybe push it three, four days and then slowly get back in it. I think you rev up the effects of keto with these longer fasts.

When I see people out in Arizona and they’re going from standard, the fast food, the cookies, the cupcakes, all this stuff that we talked about, usually one of the first things I tell them to do is to go all organic. That way you get to enjoy all the foods that you’re still addicted to, except for the chocolate chip cookies are organic, the ice cream is organic, and the cereal is organic.

You’re onto something there. I do think the micronutrients of the organic ones give some satiety and give some level of sustenance that they weren’t getting before rather than eating empty calories. It’s still bad calories, but it’s at least nourishing to a degree. I like that strategy. Eat the healthier version of the crap, then we’ll get you on the healthy foods eventually.

Also, the chemicals that are in the typical standard American diet. I believe if all people did is get rid of all those chemicals, it’s a big deal.

We hold onto those toxins and this is why some people struggle with weight loss or other health issues is because they’re not able to detoxify properly. Their body holds onto these toxins in the body fat to protect the body from these toxins. There are many reasons why their detoxification processes would be compromised, but absolutely, it’s hard to get away from chemicals nowadays. They’re everywhere in our home, in the environment. I totally agree with you that if we could make small changes like that, it will go a long way.

Even switching out for essential oils instead of the air fresheners, it’s little things you can do.

I agree with that a thousand gazillion percent and that’s all in the medical literature, all that information about air pollution, outdoor, indoor, all of the modern chemical toxins that are there. It’s in the literature that they’re linked to metabolic diseases. It’s not like we’re saying something that’s outlandish. It’s all there. It’s just the average medical doctor is not reading it.

Who knew it’s more than just the food?

We have a mutual friend, Jack Kruse, and he says that all of the food gurus aka Jimmy Moore, that they’re all missing the boat on this one. It’s all about sunshine. What do you say to that, Jimmy?

I’m not opposed to sunshine. I’m very pro-vitamin D and sunshine. Jack Kruse has some interesting opinions that I choose not to participate in and so we’ll leave it right there.

Speaking of Jack Kruse, he lives in Louisiana and he’s an interesting fellow. Our industry is full of interesting people. To go back and bash vegans if we can, why can’t a vegan eat an oyster? What’s the matter with an oyster? If the argument is about, “I’m not going to eat anything with eyes.” It doesn’t have any eyes. Does an oyster have any more or less feelings that a head of cabbage? Tell me.

What these vegans fail to realize is how do these plants get nourished. It’s from fertilizers which are from animals. I know for some vegans it’s a moral thing. They don’t like the treatment of the animals. For that reason, everybody treats the animals wrong so I’m not going to eat meat. In all honesty, Weston A. Price. He was a dentist. He went around to these traditional cultures and observed what their diet was having and how it was affecting their teeth. He found that all of these healthy societies all ate some animal products. They all incorporated animal products in their diet. They all ate sea salt, they all consume fermented foods and he found no healthy vegan society. This is why it’s so important. Some form of animal products because your animal products are your complete source of proteins and they’re rich in B vitamins. Oftentimes vegans will be deficient in B12 and they’ll have to supplement with that. I know for most it’s just a moral thing. What do you think?

It’s sad the way that veganism has caught on so strongly because I think the reason people feel so good when they first go vegan is they’re getting off the junk food. If you get off of junk food onto real food, even if it’s lacking in certain real foods like animal-based foods, you’re going to feel better for a period of time, but most vegans and I even saw a statistic of a survey, nine out of ten vegans cheat. They have meat at some point and so there’s that primal call within them that says meat is a part of the natural human diet. It’s very sad the way that this has held on for dear life that veganism has become a thing when it’s the most unnatural diet you could possibly eat.

HHS 26 | Keto Diet

Keto Diet: Veganism has become a thing when it’s really the most unnatural diet you could possibly eat.

 

Some of the early data from Dean Ornish and looking at angiograms and seeing the plaque reversal, whether that’s true or not, I don’t know. I never looked at the original films and unless you say it’s true. I think what happens is that you’re starving the body. You’re not starving the body in a good way, like somebody would do. Not to conflate starving with fasting, but that when you starve the body through vegan foods and only being vegan, the body starts to digest itself. It will start to digest coronary plaque, but it also starts to digest organs and blood-brain barrier and brain. You have all these different mental issues. You have all these other health issues associated with being a vegan.

That also manifests itself in the behavior of online vegan personalities. I fear for them because they’re lacking fat in their brains and I think it’s affecting their mood. It’s pretty profound.

Then also as they are vegan and they’re not getting the omega 3s, I beg all vegans to at least eat seafood. At least start eating oysters or sardine, anchovy, wild salmon. Eat something like that, but then they’re sitting there in the artificial lights, they’re not getting the sunshine. They’ve got this whole perfect storm. They wind up sick, they wind up suicidal, whatever it may be. You mentioned Weston A. Price, Christine. How much raw dairy do you recommend to your clients?

It depends. Some people may have sensitivity. For me, if I consume too much dairy then I have psoriasis outbreaks on the back of my scalp. I know my limit, I eat very little of it. It depends on the person. Not everybody has access to raw dairy. We happen to live in South Carolina, so we have access. It’s legal here. If they don’t have access to raw dairy, I will tell them to do whole dairy, not this low-fat crap. It depends on the individual. Some people can handle a lot of it and I just tell them to measure their blood sugar because I know for me if I eat too much dairy, it will raise my blood sugar. This is where testing is important.

It’s highly individualized or something they call bio-individuality. I can’t make a blanket statement saying, “I recommend this much to all of my clients.” I say, “Do what you feel comfortable doing, test your blood sugar to see how it affects your blood sugar and if you see your blood sugar elevate, back off a little bit.” I will recommend if they have access to goat’s milk or goat’s cheeses. I tend to react better to those types of cheeses and dairy products. I will recommend other types of dairy over the cow dairy because some people are sensitive to some sort of protein in it. It’s very highly individualized. I personally don’t consume a lot of it.

Jimmy, what about you? Are you a dairy guy?

I love dairy. I’ve tinkered with cutting it out of the diet for periods of time, especially when I was in the paleo world, hot and heavy, going to conferences and things like that. Everybody was making the case for eliminating dairy just to see what would happen. I did for a period of time. I didn’t notice any digestive changes or weight changes or anything positive. I did it for about three months and there’s no change. I’m like, “It’s hard to go keto without dairies.” I know you can, but it does give you more options if you can have high-fat dairy.

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If we want people to be successful, we’ve got to give them a lot of different options. I’ve gone back and forth as well. My book is The Paleo Cardiologist, but my book is not a diet book. My book is a lifestyle book. It’s about following the wisdom of our ancestors, living the life of our ancestors, which includes sleep, sunshine and chemicals out of the house, all the things that we talked about. It’s not just about the paleo diet. The reality is that according to the medical literature, and we can all be critical of it and conspiracies that some of that stuff is sponsored by the dairy industry.

It’s totally true. I’m in agreement with that, yet the literature on the benefits of dairy regarding lipids, regarding increasing HDL numbers, increasing HDL functionality. I happen to think is the next holy grail on lab testing is looking at HDL functionality because if you have a highly functional HDLs, you’re going to do some good in your body. I do understand our ancestors never chased down another animal to milk it and make cheese, butter, yogurt, and certainly not ice cream yet, I do think that there is some value, especially if you can find it raw. If you can find it raw from a quality source, I think you’re good.

Quality is the key there. As Christine said, we’re one of only nine states that it’s legal. They’re increasingly trying to crack it down even in these nine states. I know The Weston A. Price Foundation, Sally Fallon, that whole group are trying to bring real milk back on the map again, RealMilk.com or something like that is their website to try to campaign for getting raw dairy back legal again in the illegal state.

Here’s the thing, if we take everything away from somebody when we’re telling them to change their diet, it’s going to scare them off. People need options and having the dairy as an option does make it a lot easier. I feel for these people that can’t do dairy because it is a lot harder. They’re so limited.

What’s amazing is the federal government go towards legalizing marijuana across the country. I don’t have a problem with that necessarily. Over in Denver, they’re talking about having a refuge for substance abusers, crack addicts and meth addicts so they can get free needles and get access and have a safe harbor over there. The raw dairy is going in the other direction, they’re trying to get rid of it.

We live right next to a state here in South Carolina. In Georgia, if you cross over into Georgia and they know that you grabbed some raw milk from a South Carolina farmer, they will pull you over. They will make you pour it out on the side of the road and then you’ll get a citation. They treat you like a criminal simply because you want real whole food.

Ladies and gentlemen of the Healthy Heart Show, Real Food Keto by Jimmy and Christine Moore. Once again, pick it up. Jimmy, where can they get the book? Obviously, they can get it on Amazon. You told me they can get it from Costco, which is cool. Tell me else and tell me how people can find out more about you guys.

We have a website for the book, RealFoodKeto.com, where we have links to where you can get the book, as well as interviews that we’ve done for this book. I think Jack, this is about number 40 that we’ve done for the book. Thank you for having us on the show. I’m at LivinLaVidaLowCarb.com or google Jimmy Moore. The first three pages are all my stuff, it just means I’m old. I’ve been out there a very long time. Christine, do you have a website?

My website is RebootingYourNutrition.com. That’s where you can find me.

Christine, I know that you guys have a big annual event. Are you still pretty dialed into the Nutritional Therapy Association?

As a matter of fact, we’re going this time. I went for the first time and we’re going to go again.

The first time they ever let a keto talk happen at this one.

They see the importance of offering a ketogenic option for their practitioners. They’re looking for more keto practitioner. We love NTA. It’s a lot different than other communities that I’ve noticed. There’s an acceptance. They don’t push people away if they don’t believe the same.

Gray Graham’s leadership does that. Did you meet Gray Graham?

I spoke for Biotics up in Portland and I met Gray for the first time and it was fantastic. Then also seeing the other NTPs that were there. They came up to me. They’re so knowledgeable and just soaking it all up. That’s why I say if someone has a health problem, they’re much better in the hands of Christine Moore and one of these other NTP certified practitioners than the hands of the medical doctor. Thank you, guys, for being on the show. I appreciate it. Best of luck.

Thank you for having us.

Thanks, Jack.

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About Jimmy and Christine Moore

HHS 26 | Keto DietJimmy Moore catapulted onto the health scene in 2004 after a phenomenal 180-pound weight loss enabled him to come off prescription drugs for high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and respiratory problems. He is the energetic personality behind the uber-popular blog Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb and the host of the longest-running and top-ranked iTunes health podcast, The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show, as well as Keto Talk, The KetoHacking MD Podcast, and The Nutritional Pearls Podcast. He has interviewed over 1,500 of the world’s top health experts and has dedicated his life to helping people get the best information possible about nutrition so they can make the right decisions for their health. He’s the international bestselling author of Keto Clarity, The Ketogenic Cookbook, and The Complete Guide To Fasting. Learn more about Jimmy and his work at www.livinlavidalowcarb.com.

Christine Moore is a Nutritional Therapy Practitioner who specializes in real food–based low-carb, high-fat, ketogenic nutrition. She helps clients around the globe via Skype through her Rebooting Your Nutrition business (www.rebootingyournutrition.com) and is passionate about customizing the diet to the individual. Christine and her husband, international bestselling keto author, podcaster, and speaker Jimmy Moore, are the cohosts of The Nutritional Pearls Podcast (,www.nutritionalpearlspodcast.com). She works diligently to get to the underlying issues in digestion, gut health, and blood sugar and insulin levels to optimize health nutritionally in the most natural way possible. Christine and Jimmy reside in Spartanburg, South Carolina, with their four cats and umpteen backyard chickens.